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Flight 714: identification of bird needed

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jock123
Moderator
#21 · Posted: 3 Oct 2005 13:25 · Edited by: jock123
Thanks for steering things back on topic, Phalanx! And, in spite of the fact that it wipes the toucan/two can/ Tintin off of its perch, you offer the more plausible identification of the bird in question!

Just keeping things neat, perhaps yamilah you might like to take the outstanding answers to my questions into another more relevant thread?
yamilah
Member
#22 · Posted: 5 Oct 2005 12:38 · Edited by: yamilah
Phalanx
I'm pretty sure this bird is a Wreathed Hornbill (Rhyticeros undulatus), not a toucan. Not all hornbill have prominent horns.

Still your link's picture of a hornbill does show a distinctive wreathed /undulatus /corrugated horn...


There are a few minor differences such as the colour of the orbital eye skin, but otherwise it's 99% exactly like the said hornbill.

Err... it looks like the original Flight 714 (p.22, frame B1) version differs, for:
- I can't see a red periorbital skin, but a blue one, as you mention...
- I can't see a reddish plume from the nape, but a plain black one...
- I can't see a yellow gular colour, but a red one...
- I can't see neither any gular proeminent pouch, nor its distinct black stripe...
- I can't see black feet, but brown ones...
- I can't see a 100cm's large bird...
- and I can't see any wreathed /undulatus /corrugated horn or casque on its bill, but just a red spot...

Thus all one can say is that Vol 714's bird certainly doesn't look 99% like a Wreathed Hornbill...
Imho, this toucan-like bird just belongs to Tintin's unique world...
Phalanx
Member
#23 · Posted: 7 Oct 2005 16:21
Still your link's picture of a hornbill does show a distinctive wreathed /undulatus /corrugated horn...

I said 'prominent', not 'distinctive'. As in 'conspicuous and easy to notice.' In comparison to a Great or Rhinoceros Hornbill, a casque like that of the Wreathed hornbill is small and not prominent. (Sorry, birding jargon)

Err... it looks like the original Flight 714 (p.22, frame B1) version differs, for:
- I can't see a red periorbital skin, but a blue one, as you mention...


I attributed this to a colourist mistake, since unless you're an anal ornithologist it's easy to get colours on birds mixed up. I didn't think it a very important difference.

- I can't see a reddish plume from the nape, but a plain black one...

If you're familiar with birdwatching, you'd realise that colours like red and brown often appear black in the shade. If you didn't, now you do ;)

- I can't see a yellow gular colour, but a red one...

Ditto as above, only yellow often appears darker and sometimes brown or orange.

- I can't see neither any gular proeminent pouch,

Look carefully. That orange protruding thing on the throat? That's it. The angle doesn't make it as prominent, but that IS it.

nor its distinct black stripe...

This is an interesting point you raised. At first I thought it was an artist omission, then I discovered there is another very similar looking species of hornbill called the Plain Pouched (Wreathed )Hornbill which doesn't have the stripe.

- I can't see black feet, but brown ones...

Same as above.

- I can't see a 100cm's large bird....

Um, Why not?

- and I can't see any wreathed /undulatus /corrugated horn or casque on its bill, but just a red spot...

Even if you're not an artist (not saying you aren't, just saying IF), you'll still realise that this IS a drawing, not a photo. Not all the fine details make it in. Surely you know that. Given the size (and relative unimportance) of the bird, is it any surprise an artist should chose to not draw every single corrugation and just colour the horn reddish? Simplification is part of caricature and comics, after all.

Thus all one can say is that Vol 714's bird certainly doesn't look 99% like a Wreathed Hornbill...
Imho, this toucan-like bird just belongs to Tintin's unique world...


Riiight. And the brown sparrows in page 161 frame 10 of Secret of The Unicorn (which are unnaturally plain, simplified and uniformly brown) are special mutant sparrows in Tintin's unique world. Of course. 9_9

I'm still very inclined to think that this is a Wreathed hornbill, doubly so because toucans are only found in South America, not Asia, and the fictitious Sondonesia was supposed to be in the proximity of Indonesia (Jakarta) where you DO find hornbills.

jock: You're welcome ;) Sorry about sinking the Toucan theory. Personally I'm inclined to think the hornbill is there just to emphasize that they really are in the middle of nowhere. But that's just my opinion. Sometimes a bird is just a bird and an owl just an owl.
yamilah
Member
#24 · Posted: 7 Oct 2005 18:05 · Edited by: Moderator
PhalanxSorry about sinking the Toucan theory.

Did you, indeed?
Thanks for your answer. The least one can say is that this bird's drawing is rather obscure... ;-)

...and incongruous amidst Tin-tin's clear words, strangely distorted by Haddock though, as shown by his mistaking left for 'gauche'...

IMHO, more relevant avatars /translations of TIN+TIN are still to be found, such as syllables potentially able to cross-match with systematic incongruities found in the entire corpus...not to mention about the 'tilted M-shaped quiff'; please see related thread.

--
UPDATE
Posted: Oct 8, 2005 09:06:31
Err... I forgot to mention meticulous Herge's tropical bird has only two front digits, just like toucans...
Thus I very much doubt it can be a hornbill, for all hornbills do have three front digits.
Please see:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/72043715/72047488dhPuRT
and
http://www.borneowetnwild.com/tabinguide/birds/htm/hornbills.htm
and
http://www.centralfloridazoo.org/animals/Wreathed_hornbill.htm

--
[Post edited by Moderator. Combined 2 consecutive posts.]
Phalanx
Member
#25 · Posted: 10 Oct 2005 13:30
Good on you for noticing the toes.

I'm pretty sure they are mistakes, however. Check out these photos of hornbills from the same angle:

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/science/devotion/images_devotion/hornbill.jpg
http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0026-0312-0102-4137_SM.jpg
http://users.iafrica.com/c/cc/ccf/Yellowbilled_Hornbill2.jpg

The third toe is often obscured by the second toe. If you didn't know that hornbills had three in front, you'd think they had two. Easy to see how such a mistake could have occured.

Easiest way to settle this is the visual comparison.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/pingteo/hergebird.jpg

I purposely chose a toucan that looked closest to the mystery bird. The hornbill still bears the greatest likeness.

I rest my case ;)
yamilah
Member
#26 · Posted: 10 Oct 2005 16:06 · Edited by: yamilah
Phalanx
I purposely chose a toucan that looked closest to the mystery bird. The hornbill still bears the greatest likeness.

Thanks for scanning those pictures, they help us a lot; I must admit Herge's bird looks somehow like a hornbill ...except for its feet!

Look, even the small and dull hornbill's picture shows three digits, contrary to Herge bird's close-up, viewed in full light... see http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/pingteo/hergebird.jpg


Look, this hornbill's feet are seen in the same view angle as Herge's one, and show three digits... see http://community.webshots.com/photo/72043715/72047488dhPuRT and view 'full size'...


Look, Herge's bird is actually less tilted up than the latter, and thus offers a better view of its paws...


Anyway, this bird + Haddock's 'gauche' misunderstanding & other kind of rebus markers aren't so crucial but invite to ask the big question:

'Are Hergean innumerable text and image anomalies just artist's views, or are they done on purpose?'

Considering Herge's legendary meticulousness and what he confessed in his interviews, the second hypothesis seems more reasonable to some...
Phalanx
Member
#27 · Posted: 10 Oct 2005 20:39
yamilah
I must admit Herge's bird looks somehow like a hornbill

EXACTLY!

In view of this, is it not logical to suppose the two toes are mistakes? Or do we surmise the bird looks like a hornbill, is found in an area where hornbills are known to be found, but is really a toucan (A bird that is not found out of south america) that somehow ended up in asia because it has two toes?


'Are Hergean innumerable text and image anomalies just artist's views, or are they done on purpose?'

Artist views. Definitely. No one is perfect.

No matter how legendary, meticulousness doesn't get rid of errors totally. It only lessens the likelihood of them occurring.

Airline maintenance and safety is said to be incredibly 'meticulous' and the likelihood of you being killed while flying is very low, but you still hear of planes crashing.

I have yet to see any convincing argument that there is a pattern in the errors. Didn't someone say "If you have enough monkeys banging randomly on typewriters, they will eventually type the works of William Shakespeare." ?

Mind you, I'm open to the idea, but I base my theories on facts, not the other way around. Provide me with something more concrete and I'll give it some thought. Just don't expect me to swallow something based on sources without giving me access to those same exact sources so I can see and make my mind up for myself, k?

Thanks.
yamilah
Member
#28 · Posted: 12 Oct 2005 11:41 · Edited by: yamilah
Phalanx
a toucan (A bird that is not found out of south america) that somehow ended up in asia because it has two toes?

The elephant in Congo* also has a toes' problem that makes it mainly Indian (among other anatomical incongruities); Snowy in Soviets* has been described as having a legs' problem, and quite a few animals with such problems are likely still to be found, as I mentioned it long ago...

It is 'a bit childish', as Herge said...

Thus it is suggested the interested ones (in case they have not much spare time, or an hypertrophic ego) ask their kids to help them in this quest...


I base my theories on facts, not the other way around.

Imho, repeated incongruous anatomies and unnumerable spelling mistakes (original versions only, indeed) are facts, and interpretating them as "artist's views" is precisely the other way round...

On purpose. Definitely. Otherwise our unworldly author wouldn't have been so presomptuous to pretend he was meticulous, and his drawings were legible...


* please see related threads.
jock123
Moderator
#29 · Posted: 12 Oct 2005 12:20
yamilah
Imho, repeated incongruous anatomies and unnumerable spelling mistakes (original versions only, indeed) are facts, and interpretating them as "artist's views" is precisely the other way round...

The logical interpretation is that Hergé was vague about anatomy, and didn’t know how to spell - to consider that it is in some way symbolic of a code or message is, as Phalanx describes, imaginative, but unsupported.

As I have now said many times, and as Phalanx is commenting above, you choose to include things or exclude things at a whim, which does not follow a demonstrable process or pattern; if you are now proclaiming that because Hergé apparently made several mistakes then that is indicative of something rather than actual mistakes, you should be able to offer an interpretation of the many errors I pointed out in the early pages of Soviets (and rather than insist that you do the searching, I include a link here).

Phalanx has given the benefit of his ornithological expertise, and backed up with photographic examples that the bird is far closer to being a simply drawn hornbill than your improbable toucan; he has explained (and demonstrated) that it is possible to assume that the bird has two toes because of its posture etc., is it not just easier to accept that your question has been answered, and move on?
yamilah
Member
#30 · Posted: 12 Oct 2005 13:31
jock123
you choose to include things or exclude things at a whim

I'm afraid it's not 'at a whim', as only cross-matching or incongruous data are taken into account...

... all the more as digits' and feet's appearance do match rather well with a 'tracking game'...

I'm afraid much much more patience and confidence are required to try and interpret some of the details you are interested in...

What about TIN+TIN syllables in the Archipelagos' languages? What about the stars, and other 'childish' questions already asked??

The ones who believe in Tintin's 'invisible' tracking game are invited to play on...

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