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Castafiore Emerald: Which king is which?

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mct16
Member
#11 · Posted: 22 Jun 2012 16:40
There was actually a Henry XV, who was Duke of Bavaria in the 14th century and I believe that four poster beds (which Castafiore is referring to) were available at that time.
tuhatkauno
Member
#12 · Posted: 22 Jun 2012 18:45
Balthazar:
I thought maybe Henrik and Ludwig were Finnish monarchs

I wish we had monarchs of our own but we only have a long row of Kurvi-Tasch looking presidents. Before indepence we were first a part of Sweden (1150-1809) and then a part of Russia (1809-1917). If kings of Sweden and zars of Russia count then we have numbers of monarchs.

Balthazar:
is presumably written that way in Finnish

Jep, like Carlos, Charles, Carl => Kaarle/Kalle

Balthazar:
Finnish naval ancestory for Haddock

Heh ... who could he be ... actually there is no such thing as Finnish naval history ... few booze smugglers come into mind but no real hero :-)
jock123
Moderator
#13 · Posted: 22 Jun 2012 20:27
Balthazar:
I suppose if they'd already remained faithfiul to Hergé's original backstory of Sir Francis being given the mansion by Louis XIV in their translation of The Secret of the Unicorn

Again this presupposes that the translators were interested in conveying tone, rather than a literal translation of the words on the page.

It still happens: for example, the recent edition of Gil Jordan from Fantagraphics in English, is visually a treat, but loses marks big time for the pedestrian nature of the translation, which works totally against the book. I don’t have a copy of my own, but there’s a sequence in which Gil’s comedy side-kick delivers a sequence of really flat dialogue, then appears to have a fit – it really was quite disconcerting to read, as there seemd to be some distress involved. In reality, he should have been delivering a series of puns, and then rolled on the floor with laughter. What the translator should have done is created a sequence of punning dialogue to fit the scene, and convey both comedy and the sense of the scene, because just transliterating the words didn’t mean a thing in context.
Linda UK
Member
#14 · Posted: 22 Jun 2012 21:11
[b][/b]

The Finnish translation of the "Kings" in Castafiore Emerald is very interesting, and i wonder if this is the same as the Swedish edition, due to their shared Royal history.

Without wanting members to go off topic or away from the original point and question, regarding the translations and context of the "Kings" named in the various language editions of Castafiore Emerald on page.11 in panel.6, it may be helpful and interesting to consider the context, if members could also inform us how the translators dealt with the reference to Captain Haddock's ancestor's named King of the Navy and Unicorn in 1676 (King Charles II in the English book), Secret of The Unicorn page.14 in panel.12, and also the Unicorn ship's flag on pages.15-18?

Not wanting to move away from my original question regarding the various language translations of the two named Kings in Castafiiore Emerald, but as an additional interest and reference in historical context to these named Kings, to also know how the King and flag are dealt with in Unicorn to compare this in historical and language (as well as the Castafiore joke) context.
Balthazar
Moderator
#15 · Posted: 22 Jun 2012 21:45
jock123:
Again this presupposes that the translators were interested in conveying tone, rather than a literal translation of the words on the page.

Oh absolutely. But whilst it's possible the Spanish translation follows that sort of bad auto-translate path (which often drives me mad too when reading translated books), I was giving the Spanish translators the benefit of the doubt in assuming that their translation might not be like that at all and might be generally excellent at capturing tone, natural speech, humour, etc. Not having the Spanish editions and not speaking Spanish anyway, I can't know either way. But obviously I wouldn't want to assume that all translatiors who chose to preserve Hergé's original Belgian settings and French historical references in Unicorn (and who therefore saddled themselves with a rather French-readers-only furniture-dating gag in Castafiore) are necessarily likely to have been overly literal in other respects.
mct16
Member
#16 · Posted: 22 Jun 2012 23:15
jock123:
there’s a sequence in which Gil’s comedy side-kick delivers a sequence of really flat dialogue, then appears to have a fit

Could you be more specific about where this scene occurs and the details of the character's remarks? Part of the idea is that he keeps making jokes and puns and is the only one who actually laughs at them, while the others just groan and raise their eyes to the ceiling, so that could have been the translators' aim.
Linda UK
Member
#17 · Posted: 23 Jun 2012 01:48
mct16

This question and subject of the Castafiore Emerald and translations references of the named European historic Kings is, i fear, in danger of going off topic (re - "Gil's Comedy example"), and possibly drifting away from my original interest and inquiry regarding the differing translations editions of the named Kings, and the historical context of this with the previously named King and Navy's context from Secret of The Unicorn.
I hope new or later readers don't miss the original issue and discussion?
Mikael Uhlin
Member
#18 · Posted: 23 Jun 2012 11:37
It's fascinating how you still can learn new things thanks to Tintin!
Up here in Sweden, those kings are translated as Henrik XV and Ludvig XIII (which, like in the Finnish case, simply are the germanic versions of Henri and Louis and clearly meant to be French kings - there's never been any Swedish kings named Ludvig or Henrik), but up until now I've never realized that there never even was a Henri XV of France!
I wish they somehow kept that joke in the Swedish translation.
Being a fan of the Marx Brothers, I know that in the stage version of Animal Crackers (but not in the film), there's a masquerade scene taking place at the court of the fictional king Louis the 57th.
Or take the singer who recorded They're coming to take me away in the 1960s as Napoleon XIV. Using names like these (which look like French royalty, but quite obviously are fictional) could have been a way.

And about Swedish translations, it's actually quite complicated.
Tintin was first presented to Swedish readers in the late 1940s, but up until the 1960s it was only serialized in weeklies and dailies, each time with a new translation!
The first batch of albums came in 1960-62, when The Shooting Star, King Ottokar's Sceptre, Secret of the Unicorn and Red Rackham's treasure were published.
Some of these stories had already been available in various papers, but these were brand new translations.
Those albums didn't sell well, so it was back to serializations in the papers, from the 60s including some comic magazines.
The albums soon returned and between 1968 and 1978 all of them (including Soviet and Congo) were published, re-translated again and (partly thanks to the Belvision-cartoons shown on Swedish TV in the early 1970s) this time Tintin was a large success.
Still is, actually.
During 2004-05, all albums were re-released in new editions and - yes - re-translated once more! This means that there are at least two, often three, Swedish translations of every adventure.
Ottokar has been translated into Swedish six (!) times and Cigars five.
Being a "late" adventure, The Castafiore Emerald has been translated only twice, and I'm referring to the first one which I grew up with.
I haven't the second available right now but when I get the chance I'll check that translation regarding those kings.

The bits about the Spanish translations in this thread are interesting, since most of present Belgium for quite a long time was part of the Spanish empire as the Spanish Netherlands, sharing the same kings.
However, the boundaries changed over time, and when Chevalier de Hadoque received Moulinsart from King Louis/Ludvig XIV, that piece of land must obviously have been annexed by France.
If I remember correctly, we've discussed this before in another thread.

De Insula Nigra:
Any ideas why the English translators changed the French references and whether they are the only ones to have done so?

Check out https://www.tintinologist.org/articles/goldenpress.html . In the first US edition of Rackham, it was St. Patrick's cathedral in New York!
In the first Swedish edition (and translation) from 1962, the reference was to the Swedish cathedral Uppsala domkyrka, but in the two others (from 1974 and 2004 respectively), it's St Peter's in Rome.

Earlier this year, I had the opportunity to visit the lovely island of Mauritius, east of Madagascar in the Indian Ocean, and I was pleasantly surprised to find Tintin translated to their local, French-based language Kréol Morisien.
So far, only two albums are available (Unicorn & Rackham) and on page 23 in Trézor Rakam ti-rouz, the joke is referring to "Katédral Sin Loui dan Porloui", i.e. the St Louis Cathedral in (the Mauritian capital of) Port Louis
...or "Ludvigshamn", which would be its Swedish name :-)

BTW, in the related language Kréol Rénioné on nearby island of Reunion (still a French possesion), five Tintin albums are available: Lotus, Crab, Tibet, Flight 714 - and Le kofŕe bijou la Kastafiore! I wonder how those kings are translated in Rénioné...
Balthazar
Moderator
#19 · Posted: 23 Jun 2012 12:46
Interesting info as always, Mikael.

I think we're finding that to anyone other than well-educated French people, Henry (or Henrik) XV doesn't leap out as being non-existant monarch because other French king names (such as Louis) do go up into the high teens. Maybe you have to take a French king's number up to something as high as the Marx Brothers' Louis the 57th before you can be sure that non-French people or non-historians will realise you're joking!

Whereas in the English translation, having established that the conversation is about English monarchs, Henry the Tenth sounds wrongto most British people's ears, even to young readers with little historical education, not just because the English Henrys only go up to the famous Eighth, but because no British monarch names go as high as ten. Anything numbering higher than "Suchandsuch the Eighth" just sounds instinctively wrong, and funny.

Of course, the English translators could have stuck with Hergé's Henry the fifteenth for Castafiore's non-existent English king. But, in the English context, where no monarch names get into the teens, maybe that would have made Castafiore sound too weirdly stupid and overkilled the joke. Henry the Tenth, to English readers, perhaps gets her level of ignorance just right, comedically.


Linda UK:
... possibly drifting away from my original interest and inquiry regarding the differing translations editions of the named Kings, and the historical context of this with the previously named King and Navy's context from Secret of The Unicorn.
I hope new or later readers don't miss the original issue and discussion?

Don't worry. In spite of a few digressions within the thread, I think the thread title continues to flag up the main point of the thread.

I suspect we're going to see a correlation between translations that maintain the Belgian and French contexts in Unicorn and those that keep the French kings' names intact in The Castafiore Emerald. This seems logical, assuming that the four poster bed is original furniture made or bought for the house shortly after it was built, which is what Hergé's original implies, ie: Moulinsart given to Sir Francis by Louis XIV, having been built and furnished in the reign of Louis XIII. (And the English translator's Anglicised version maintains a parallel logic, of course: Marlinspike given to Sir Francis by Charles II, having been built and furnished in the reign of Charles I.)

Therefore the most interesting translations to look at (if you're interested in finding more variant King names in Castafiore) might be any which relocate Moulinsart to their own country the way the English translations do. I seem to recall from another thread that the original German translation (which may also be the current one, but I'm not sure) renamed Moulinsart as something German sounding and gave it a German address. Someone here will know!
Linda UK
Member
#20 · Posted: 23 Jun 2012 22:03
Balthazar

I too think a basic knowledge of the various translations editions of Moulinsart or Marlinspike would be a useful and helpful background and start to addressing the question of the translated Kings names in Castafiore Emerald (and related Unicorn's King and flag, etc).

First of course we have the two already main discussed versions of Chateau Moulinsart in the Belgian/French, and of course Marlinspike Hall (Marlinshire) in the English.

As far as i'm aware in the German translation the house is "Schloss Muhlenhof", certainly in some publications, if not likely all the series.

In the Danish editions we have "Mollenborg Slot", and in the Dutch it is "Kasteel Molensloot".

I'm not familiar with the other versions, but i think the Norweigan and Icelandic translators had their own named versions too.

It seems the Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese, versions are either the same as Moulinsart, or with variations on the name castle as "Castillo" or "Castella".

These may be a useful start to looking further then at these various translations on the Castafiore "Kings" and the country's historic context, as well as the King, flag, and country named and suggested in Unicorn, and again its context to the house and Castafiore "kings" context, era, and joke.

I agree that the English translators maintaining some historic context and period between Marlinspike Hall, the Kings, the furniture, etc in both the Unicorn book and Castafiore Emerald, certainly is pleasing and easier on an English readership.

The many Swedish translations and versions of all this is really interesting to know and discover, for me this suggests their may be much more to learn regarding the various translators dealing with the house, historic context, and Kings.

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