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Facsimiles: Some questions

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lordlozz
Member
#1 · Posted: 6 Feb 2017 01:38
Hello all.

OK, so I'm a huge Tintin fan, always have been. I am interested in somehow obtaining a full set of facsimile books. (I would like to collect the originals but I'm not a millionaire.)

I have a few questions: What Facsimiles sets are actually available and where can I get them?

Do facsimiles of the Le Petit Vingtième publications exist? Were the Le Petit Vingtième publications any different from the french albums that came out the following year? Presumably the Le Petit Vingtième publications had more color plates since there was a weekly front cover..??

If I can't get Le Petit Vingtième facsimiles what is the closest thing that I can get?

Can I get facsimiles that include English translations?

How many revisions were made to the original tintin adventures other than color and language? Were they changed after the first English publications at all? If so, are there facsimiles of the first English publications?

Basically i'd like to track and enjoy reviewing all the changes that have been made to each tintin adventure over the years. How many and at what point were changes made? (Other than releasing them in another language).
jock123
Moderator
#2 · Posted: 6 Feb 2017 09:19 · Edited by: jock123
Hi! That's a lot of questions, and would have taken the thread you posted in a long way off course, so your post has been broken out into its own thread, for simplicity.

Most of your questions deal with subjects already well-covered on the forums and elsewhere on the site, so you will find that using our search function, or just simply paging through several of the sections will produce topics which hold answers for you.

To get you started, here are a few answers, some of which have links to other threads to get your researches under way!

lordlozz:
What Facsimiles sets are actually available and where can I get them?

Not sure what you mean by "sets", but the "facsimiles" in English (so far) are the first five books (Soviets is also available as a "standard" edition, and Congo has appeared in two different versions, to match the first and second original editions), plus five of the colour albums.

You will find sources for the books in many places - bookshops will order them in if you ask - but you could start with our shopping guide. If you want a really good place to start, the original Tintin Shop in Floral Street, Covent Garden, London is a specialist outlet with expert knowledge and a great range of stock.

lordlozz:
Do facsimiles of the Le Petit Vingtième publications exist?

There is an ongoing comprehensive republication of all the episodic versions of Hergé's stories in a series called Hergé, le feuilleton intégral; this is a major undertaking, and the volumes are not appearing in chronological order (because of the work going into producing them). It isn't available in English.

lordlozz:
If I can't get Le Petit Vingtième facsimiles what is the closest thing that I can get?

Again, not sure what you are looking for here...? "Closest" in what sense?

lordlozz:
Can I get facsimiles that include English translations?

For some of them - see above.

lordlozz:
How many revisions were made to the original Tintin adventures other than color and language?

Far too wide ranging a question to answer here - you will need to read through the forums to find that sort of information, as there are just too many to compile into a list, and we have many, many threads about them.

lordlozz:
If so, are there facsimiles of the first English publications?

No, not even the "facsimiles" listed above - none of the books available today contain the original hand-lettering, and the version of The Black Island actually is the first time that has been made available in English, rather than a reproduction of something published before.

lordlozz:
How many and at what point were changes made? (Other than releasing them in another language).

Again, far too wide-ranging a topic for a single thread - much, much easier to deal with on a case-by-case basis for each point.
lordlozz
Member
#3 · Posted: 7 Feb 2017 19:24
Thanks Jock, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Hergé, le feuilleton integral is really rather intriguing, do you know the nature and extent of how much the Le Petit publications differed from the book version that came out the following year?

I did ask rather a lot of questions, some of which I appreciate are too difficult to answer in one post. Basically, I have decided to set myself a goal of collecting facsimiles and first eds in a logical way and what I guess I was really looking for was some advice on how best to do this.

What kind of facsimiles and 1st eds do I want? Well it may be a little too ambitious to achieve but Ideally I would like a different book for every tintin adventure, but also a different book for each and every time alterations were made in a new edition to each adventure, in French and english. Obviously some editions would have been published which would have been identical to an earlier edition so I wouldn't need every edition of every adventure.

Do you have any tips on how I can best achieve this? Where facsimiles are available I would rather have a facsimile in order to cut costs.

Do you have much information on which editions of each adventure made changes to the comic art and which editions were a simple re-print? Is there a large table anywhere that tracks all the French and English editions including notes of changes and available facsimiles? If not would I or anyone else be able to compile such a thing?

It maybe that I need to lower my ambitions slightly, if so would the following be feasible for me to aim for?: The first ever album of each adventure in facsimile, The first ever colour album in facsimile, and the first edition of the English version (assuming no facsimiles are available).

[Combined two consecutive posts]
jock123
Looking at my previous post I guess that a good place to start would be to obtain a list of every single facsimile that is available. Judging by your post this would only include the following: B&W: The first 5 adventures up to and including the blue lotus and two editions of Congo in English and French. Colour: The first 5 adventures up to and including the blue lotus in English and French. British 1st ed facsimile: none..?

Please correct where appropriate.

Not that I am at all disputing your claim that there are no English 1st ed facsimiles or facsimiles after the 5th adventure but I found the following and rather confusingly it appeared to contradict your comment: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Unicorn-Collectors-Facsimile-Adventure s/dp/0316230553
jock123
Moderator
#4 · Posted: 7 Feb 2017 23:05
Ah, I think I sort of see where you are going, but I'm not sure that the data has ever been collated to produce such a project; it will be not such a massive undertaking as it might sound at first glance, but may not be doable, as what constitutes a big enough change, and what would the operating standard be? So to answer one question, I know of no table that would contain the data that you want.

I don't know of anyone who has done such a detailed comparison; most English readers haven't had access to the original material to make such a task doable. The Hergé, le feuilleton integral is changing that (personally I can't afford it at this time) in some ways, and certainly will present material that hasn't been seen in decades.

Some of the material is already out there too: there have been complete French-language collections of theLe Soir Jeunesse version of Crab, Le Soir versions Secret of The Unicorn, Red Rackham's Treasure, and The Seven Crystal Balls, and the Tintin magazine Prisoners of the Sun.

There was a one-off (originally intended to be the start of a series) book which laid out three version of The Black Island, showing how it was first published, then revised for book publication, then the 1960s second re-drawn version. The first version differs from the subsequent book because the book is only in black-and-white, but the original publication was colour tinted.

So there are ways to pick up the variants in reasonable form; however, that's a very broad brush approach, as it doesn't take into account the changes which pop up, for which there don't seem to be obvious consistency.

For example, when Secret of The Unicorn was brought to English by Methuen (for the second time, following the failed Casterman release), Hergé replaced the flag on Sir Francis's ship with the union jack. However, it has been shown over the years, that not all English books have that, and some show the fleur-de-lys design of the original, and some show a plain blue flag. We don't know how or when or if this was in any way deliberate, or was an accident of the printing process.

The layout of the newspaper mast-head at the end of Black Island has also had some variants, but again, not enough information to say how or why.

lordlozz:
your claim that there are no English 1st ed facsimiles or facsimiles after the 5th adventure

Ah, no, I said that there were facsimiles of the first five books in black-and-white, and five of the colour books - meaning ones which had only been available in colour, like Unicorn and Red Rackham.

In retrospect, I'm not a hundred percent certain there weren't more than that, but I only ever bought The Black Island because it was effectively a useful addition to my books; the others were neither fish nor fowl - they didn't replicate the original English releases, and weren't truly facsimiles as a result (they were just digitally lettered versions in slightly old-fashioned style bindings), so I didn't bother with them.
lordlozz
Member
#5 · Posted: 8 Feb 2017 01:00
Oh, so there are no facsimiles of English first editions but there are 11 facsimiles of the first Edition books (2x Congo) that have been translated into English?

Is that correct?

Does this mean that there are 11 French facsimiles albums also then? If so presumably these would contain the original lettering.

From the sounds of it there is no facsimile albums at all for many of tintin's later adventures perhaps this is due to the fact that not much changed after the first ed of the later books.

I may have to lower my sights then because trying to find the first English edition of every Tintin I'm sure will prove to be expensive and difficult.

Even the facsimiles don't seem that easy to get hold of, I haven't seen a one stop shop that has them all available in stock. I have only found 1 or 2 for individual purchase from different merchants.

I guess the idea of creating a master table for all the tintin editions and changes would be difficult but maybe possible with a collaborative effort from different experts.. a new thread perhaps....., I think to handle that task one must first simply list all the editions for each adventure this shouldn't be too difficult you could even just buy the latest book from Waterstones and look at the first page for the editions list, can you think of any other ways? In terms of it being difficult to track some of the more obscure changes that you mentioned, surely it's safe to assume that each like edition of a particular adventure will be identical ... I.e The 1974 English edition of secrets of the unicorn will be identical to every other English 1974 edition in the same way that the 2002 edition will be identical to all the other 2002 editions?

Combined two consecutive posts - Mod.


Ahh just to add to the confusion I have found this facsimile: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Adventures-Tintin-Broken-Ear-Facsimile-Orig inal/10271103330/bd It's a colour facsimile for a book that was available in B & W and in colour, my understandings of your earlier post led me to believe that this doesn't exist..

Furthermore, like many facsimile listings, the Item doesn't even describe exactly what it is!? it doesn't even give the year of the book to which it is an imitation of. Is this a replica of the very first colour version of the broken ear copied and then translated to English or; is it simply a replica of the first English edition?!

Perhaps the two that I have just described the same anyway despite there being a 32 year gap?!
jock123
Moderator
#6 · Posted: 8 Feb 2017 12:43 · Edited by: jock123
lordlozz:
there are 11 facsimiles of the first Edition books (2x Congo) that have been translated into English?

I don't know that they are facsimiles of first editions, I can't even say that they true copies of any specific edition - for example, there's a French Picaros "facsimile" which has a cloth spine; there was a version of the book given to guests at a book-launch party and to friends and colleagues of Hergé which did have a cloth spine, but it was also different from the standard in that it had unique end papers, a printed message from Hergé, etc. None of these are in the "facsimile", so it effectively doesn't copy anything. This could also apply to any or all the others.

The English Soviets "facsimile" contains the originally omitted (from the book) page 99a, so it doesn't represent a period volume either, even if we had had a contemporary English book to copy.

I also have to repeat that - as I corrected myself above - I don't actually personally know for certain how many of the colour "facsimiles" appeared in English, as other than getting the early colour version of The Black Island, they didn't hold any appeal. Five was the initial launch number, I think, but there may have been more.

lordlozz:
Does this mean that there are 11 French facsimiles albums also then?

All the black-and-white albums are available in facsimile for certain, and I think that there have been versions of all the colour books too, including the Picaros book mentioned above.

lordlozz:
If so presumably these would contain the original lettering.

Again, no idea. I don't know how the lettering fared in the French editions over the years; I do know that every English standard album first published by Methuen (so excluding Soviets (which was lettered differently by Sundancer), Congo and Alph_Art) was hand lettered by Neil Hyslop, and this lettering is not found in the "facsimiles".
lordlozz:
there is no facsimile albums at all for many of tintin's later adventures perhaps this is due to the fact that not much changed after the first ed of the later books.

No, if there was a way, a facsimile seems to have been made. You are focusing too closely on what you see to be differences and changes - you need to think of things like which end-papers a book might have had, or what the binding was, or the quality of paper used. Early books were not laminated, they were varnished, or even unvarnished - each would be a change.
lordlozz:
I may have to lower my sights then because trying to find the first English edition of every Tintin I'm sure will prove to be expensive and difficult.

Expensive surely, difficult not so much - plenty of people have latched onto the speculator market, and will try and suggest that you have to pay huge sums, but that's the game in speculation. But the first editions were printed in large numbers, so there are many available.
There are rarities - the two Casterman books of 1952 are very scarce, but then that edition seemingly failed to sell, so unless they are all sitting in a warehouse, relatively few made it into the wild.

lordlozz:
I guess the idea of creating a master table for all the tintin editions and changes would be difficult but maybe possible with a collaborative effort from different experts

It's sort of what we are doing with the forums - whether the data could be tabulated meaningfully is another thing entirely - I mean, you'd have vast swathes of table just to contain tiny, tiny changes, and other packed bits where you'd have to annotate how the story in Black Gold changed.
It may be interesting to know that the star fish on the cover of The Secret of The Unicorn wanders about (it does - it starts off above the box with the publisher's name on early Casterman copies, and makes its way down and round in later editions), but I'm not sure that there's really much value in making exact notes of its stops along the way on a table!

lordlozz:
one must first simply list all the editions for each adventure this shouldn't be too difficult you could even just buy the latest book from Waterstones and look at the first page for the editions list

Nope, as I just explained in another thread, the publication information isn't comprehensively reported in each book. For the Methuen/ Mammoth Blue Lotus copy I reference there, I am told it was (in English): First published by Methuen Children's Books in 1983, in paperback by Magnet (also a Methuen imprint) in 1984, reprinted five times (no years or whether that's paper-or hard-back), reissued by Mammoth (also effectively a Methuen imprint, but at this point owned by Reed Consumer Books Limited)) Then reprinted 1992, 1993 (twice) 1994, 1995 (twice), 1996 and 1997.
My Egmont 2003 hardback copy has the following: first published 1983, reprinted five times, this edition published 2003. So barely any information, nothing about the hard-back/ paper-back publication, and nothing to explain the "Reprinted five times".
So you are looking at a minimum of fifteen books just for one title, between 1983 and 1997, just to check and see what changes might or might not exist between them. And that's before making sure that the paperback and hardback versions remained uniform. That's a lot of work...!
And Blue Lotus was one of the last ones to come out - imagine what something like Crab or Secret of The Unicorn which had a quarter of a century or more head start on Lotus would be like!
lordlozz:
can you think of any other ways?

We have tried to secure access to the publication history, at least for the Methuen years, but unfortunately the paperwork is no longer available so that is dea end, I'm afraid...
lordlozz:
surely it's safe to assume that each like edition of a particular adventure will be identical ... I.e The 1974 English edition of secrets of the unicorn will be identical to every other English 1974 edition in the same way that the 2002 edition will be identical to all the other 2002 editions?

Well, no - why make that assumption? Until it was all checked, there's no way to assume anything, and unless you check everything, then the research is going to be (by necessity) not comprehensive. There's just no way to know that half the 2002 run had one thing, half the other. You'd also need to check multiple copies from any batch to see that a change hadn't just happened on one press, and not on the others - the starfish might be above the publisher on one and not on others.
lordlozz:
Furthermore, like many facsimile listings, the Item doesn't even describe exactly what it is!

That's probably because if it's difficult to get across in the groups dedicated to the subject (what is a facsimile a copy of when there is no original to copy?), it would be painful to explain to a lay audience!
lordlozz
Member
#7 · Posted: 8 Feb 2017 22:43 · Edited by: Moderator
jock123:
I also have to repeat that - as I corrected myself above - I don't actually personally know for certain how many of the colour "facsimiles" appeared in English.

Can you confirm that there are not any facsimiles available for English first editions and that the English facsimiles that are available are just translations of the French ones? This seems to be what you were saying earlier.
jock123:
Nope, as I just explained in another thread, the publication information isn't comprehensively reported in each book.

Mmm... that's really rather disappointing that Egmont are not clearly listing the previous editions.
I was under the impression that a publisher is obligated to mention every previous edition of the same title, perhaps I was wrong on this.
jock123:
Again, no idea. I don't know how the lettering fared in the French editions over the years

Surely the French font in the facsimile would be the same as the original, what would be the purpose of changing it unless its being translated?
jock123:
So you are looking at a minimum of fifteen books just for one title

Yes, but I would imagine that changes would have been made to only 2 or 3 editions apart from this surely the subsequent editions would simply mirror the earlier ones.
jock123:
Well, no - why make that assumption? Until it was all checked, there's no way to assume anything

You're right, I can't be sure, however I'm pretty sure it's a safe assumption to make. I imagine setting up a print run is a fairly large project for a publisher and I would assume that they just let the printers run for x amount of days until they have the 10,000 or so copies that was requested.
jock123:
you need to think of things like which end-papers a book might have had, or what the binding was, or the quality of paper used.

I imagined that the paper and print quality would all be pretty similar, do you have any suggestions of High Quality editions? Was the first edition good quality or is it neither here nor there in that respect? I'm not so concerned about the obscure changes that you mentioned but I think the changes like changing the ethnicity of the characters, or changing the make of cars, or the font/handwriting etc would be rather interesting from a collectors perspective.
jock123:
if it's difficult to get across in the groups dedicated to the subject...it would be painful to explain to a lay audience!

I disagree, surely they could include a sentence in the small print of the date and country that it is a replica of. That's the whole point of buying a facsimile.
In your experience are they good at pointing the details in the actual book where it deviates from the original? Otherwise what's the point? It would be like buying an ambiguous piece of Tintin comic art with no appreciation of its origins.

I'll just collect the facsimiles that are available then I'll compare with modern editions; I guess that's the best that I can hope for at this point.
It would be useful to know more specific details on the facsimiles and what they are replicating exactly since most of the online listings are very vague.
lordlozz
Member
#8 · Posted: 9 Feb 2017 03:32
Hello, does anyone have a complete list of all the facsimiles available in French and English? Also, does anyone have any tips as to the best place to purchase them from?

Someone told me that there are no facsimiles of English first editions and the only English facsimiles that are available are replicas of the French books that have been translated into English.. can anyone confirm this?

One more note, a lot of the facsimiles that I see listed online appear to only have vague descriptions as to what edition it is replicating, does anyone have any tips to help me make more specific distinctions as to which replication certain listings may be referring to?
jock123
Moderator
#9 · Posted: 9 Feb 2017 10:20 · Edited by: jock123
lordlozz:
This seems to be what you were saying earlier.

That's exactly what I was saying, I'm not certain where the doubt has crept in...? ;-)

lordlozz:
thats really rather disappointing that Egmont are not clearly listing the previous editions.

Only in so far as it doesn't suit the needs of a completist, surely? It would be a tortuous read if they were I think - it wouldn't be worth the effort, and could run to great great length by now.

lordlozz:
I was under the impression that a publisher is obligated to mention every previous edition of the same title, perhaps I was wrong on this.

Why would it be an obligation - what useful purpose could it serve? It really wouldn't be useful for Egmont if they had to keep repeating data about Methuen books from fifty years or more ago.
I think it really only acts as an aide memoire for publishers and retailers, so they can figure out if they need to adjust their stock, and to give some indication of copyrights in the work.

lordlozz:
Surely the French font in the facsimile would be the same as the original, what would be the purpose of changing it

Well, most pressingly for publishers these days, so that the text can be digitized for digital production systems. The English language books changed to the current (horrible) digital font for just that reason; they had no digital version of the Hyslop lettering (it's not really a font, as it was done by hand), so it goes without saying that the "facsimiles" couldn't reuse that.
I'm not certain, but I've a feeling that the French books did change their lettering style at some point over the years, so it could be that the lettering in their "facsimiles" don't automatically mimic a specific edition.
lordlozz:
I would imagine that changes would have been made to only 2 or 3 editions apart from this surely the subsequent editions would simply mirror the earlier ones.

Well, that is certainly a hypothesis, but until tested it can't be shown to be true, which would be the undoing of a truly comprehensive study, which is what you were suggesting.
And you are talking about changes being made, and not just happening, which they do seem to do: we have looked at things like the start of Cigars and what dialogue and map are used. There are several permutations available, across various issues of the books, and it would take a perusal of them all to discover how consistently they happen, and if somethings came and went intermittently.

lordlozz:
I imagine setting up a print run is a fairly large project for a publisher and I would assume that they just let the printers run for x amount of days until they have the 10,000 or so copies that was requested.

The size of the operation is more than likely how anomalies creep in - there will be 10,000 Dutch followed by 10K Finnish and 10K English; multiple plates will be swapped, multiple machines made ready and things happening at not quite the same time. It's likely that no one actually decided to print Finnish books with the map for the British edition, and it may only have been the first or last few hundred of a batch that were affected - but they are out there. Likewise, the change in Sir Francis's flag from Union Jack to plain blue flag to fleur de lys and back again might be nothing more than an off day at the printers, or it might represent a definitive change.

lordlozz:
I imagined that the paper and print quality would all be pretty similar, do you have any suggestions of High Quality editions?

No, the paper changes weight and quality - look at an original sixites book, and they used a heavier, less white paper. Some seventies paperbacks have thinner but brighter paper (possibly to make them cheaper). Currently the books are printed on glossy paper, with more saturated colours (which could be a symptom of, or a reason for the shiny paper) than in the past. It's not really a question of high- or low-quality, although I prefer matte paper to glossy: but they are different, and again if the table were to be definitive should be noted.
lordlozz:
I'm not so concerned about the obscure changes that you mentioned but I think the changes like changing the ethnicity of the characters, or changing the make of cars,

Well, obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. We already have threads on changes to the ethnicity of characters, which actually happens so infrequently that it again calls into question creating a table.
As for changing cars, you'd need to give an example (you cross-posted this in another of your posts - it's helpful not to do that, as it makes tracking answers very difficult) as I can't think of any specific examples, other than say in a book like The Black Island, where everything was redrawn.

lordlozz:
I disagree, surely they could include a sentence in the small print of the date and country that it is a replica of.

That would only hold if they really were made for that purpose. The fact that they don't have the sentence could indicate that they weren't. I would suggest that they are closer to buying "pre-distressed" jeans, which mimic something old, without being old - certainly that's the purpose of the English ones. They give a vintage feel, but aren't intended to be the slavish copies which you seem to want...

lordlozz:
Someone told me that there are no facsimiles of English first editions and the only English facsimiles that are available are replicas of the French books that have been translated into English.. can anyone confirm this?

Apart from the disappointment that you don't trust me enough to believe me when I say that no, there are no facsimile editions of either the Casterman 1952 English language editions (because the translations have never been reused), nor the more familiar original Methuens (because none contain the original hand lettering), and that the "facsimiles" are not necessarily copies of anything, we do ask that the same question not get asked in more than one thread at a time - cross-posting just leads to the same question being dealt with more than once, and nobody knows in which thread to reply.

The post has been moved here, to keep things tidy. I'm sure if anyone else has tips, they will let you know! :-)
lordlozz
Member
#10 · Posted: 9 Feb 2017 21:11
jock123:
The post has been moved here, to keep things tidy. I'm sure if anyone else has tips, they will let you know! :-)

If there is anyone else out there who has a complete list of available facsimiles in English and french then please share :-).

jock123:
Well, obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. We already have threads on changes to the ethnicity of characters, which actually happens so infrequently that it again calls into question creating a table.

If its that infrequent then surely such a table wouldn't be such a big task.. I would have thought that of the 15 or so editions for any given adventure only 2 or 3 of these would not be a complete mirror of the previous edition.
jock123:
I can't think of any specific examples, other than say in a book like The Black Island, where everything was redrawn.

So in your opinion is the black island the only book with significant changes from the original color version? As for ethnicity of characters, does anyone know if the facsimiles are also censored like the modern books?

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