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Black Island: Assorted anomalies?

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edcharlesadams
Trivia Challenge Score Keeper
#11 · Posted: 21 Apr 2005 22:39
yamilah:
I mean, does it really exist somewhere 'in northern England'

Whereabouts does it say that it's in northern England?

From what I can see, the radio announcement on p.40 refers to "Kiltoch, au nord de l'Écosse", which is northern Scotland.

The castle's name in English is Craig Dhui, as opposed to Ben More in the French version.

Ed
Richard
UK Correspondent
#12 · Posted: 21 Apr 2005 22:40
yamilah:
I mean, does it really exist somewhere 'in northern England'

There is actually a Black Isle (note the slight difference in name) in Scotland, although it's not actually an island, but a peninsula around 29km long and upto 14.5km wide in some places, extending into the Cromarty and Moray Firths.
edcharlesadams
Trivia Challenge Score Keeper
#13 · Posted: 21 Apr 2005 22:57
... And Bob de Moor based the interior drawings of Craig Dhui on the real-life Lochranza Castle on the Isle of Arran.

Despite its situation it isn't actually on an island to itself, like the one in the book, but a peninsula of the Isle of Arran, if I remember correctly...

Ed
jock123
Moderator
#14 · Posted: 22 Apr 2005 10:05
edcharlesadams
The castle's name in English is Craig Dhui

Sorry, Ed, but that gave me a bit of a chuckle: surely the name is in Gaelic? But I know what you mean... ;-)

It just reminded me of an infamous discussion which took place many years ago on radio, where an Englishman proposed that Gaelic had no future, because it had to adopt or make up words from other languages - "I mean, what is the Gaelic for television...?" he asked, as if that settled the matter.

To which a Gaelic poet shot back, "But what is the English for television...?

There is a Craig Dhu guest house on Arran - I wonder if that was inspired by the book?

as opposed to Ben More in the French version.
There is a real Ben More in Scotland, but near Crianlarich. There is another on Mull, I think, but as the name translates as Big Hill, there could be a few more out there...!
edcharlesadams
Trivia Challenge Score Keeper
#15 · Posted: 22 Apr 2005 10:51
Sorry, Ed, but that gave me a bit of a chuckle: surely the name is in Gaelic?
Point taken jock! Must remember to write "the English version" in future.
So what does it mean in Gaelic?

That argument is ridiculous - after all, today's English exists largely on words borrowed from other languages. Incidentally the Scottish Gaelic for television is telebhisean (masculine) ;-)

Ed
jock123
Moderator
#16 · Posted: 22 Apr 2005 11:17
edcharlesadams
So what does it mean in Gaelic?

I think it should more correctly be Creag Dhubh, which is, literally, Black Rock, so it isn't inappropriate. It is a phrase associated with the MacPherson clan.

Although I don't "have the Gaelic", as the expression is in Scotland, I do know that the /bh/ is pronounced as the English /v/, so telebhisean is said the same as television, should anyone be wondering...
yamilah
Member
#17 · Posted: 25 Apr 2005 11:20
edcharlesadams
p.40 refers to "Kiltoch, au nord de l'Ecosse", which is northern Scotland.

I didn't have the album to hand. Thanks Ed for correcting the facts.

jock123
the name translates as "Big Hill"
Is Ben More (strange Gaelic 'Craig Dhui' in the English version) Old English, Scots, or Gaelic as well?
jock123
Moderator
#18 · Posted: 25 Apr 2005 14:54
yamilah
Is Ben More Old English, Scots, or Gaelic as well?

It's Gaelic, or a rendered form of such - it's more properly Beinn Mhòr.
yamilah
Member
#19 · Posted: 25 Apr 2005 20:17
jock123
'Ben More' translates as "Big Hill" / It's Gaelic, or a rendered form of such - more properly - Beinn Mhòr.

Isn't 'Big Hill' a strange name for a castle, a castle built on a steep rock, and a steep rock that is not so big when compared to the many plain 'Ben' or 'Beinn' found in the Highlands??
jock123
Moderator
#20 · Posted: 25 Apr 2005 22:25
Isn't 'Big Hill' a strange name for a castle

Nah, not so unusual. Toponyms (place names derived from their location) are usually providing references for the locals, not on a wider basis; thus places are designated "big hill" because they are bigger than the "small hill" nearby, not because of whether they meet some national standard for bigness, or provides a truly unique name for the hill. Likewise, the number of rivers called "Avon" in the UK also demonstrates the parochial nature of toponyms: the word "avon" simply means "river"...

Ben More was probably picked from an atlas or guide book by someone who'd not been to Scotland, and who didn't speak Gaelic. As I said, there's more than one, so it probably looked a safe bet.

Also bear in mind that this was a book "riddled with errors", so just add this to that column...!

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