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Q67: Belgian, French, something else?

mondrian
Member
#1 · Posted: 4 Oct 2006 14:29
Well, this isn´t proper trivia in a strict sense of the word, but I hope someone enjoys a small history test. And I think this might be interesting regarding the history of Haddock family.

labrador road 26 wrote an excellent post here: https://www.tintinologist.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=1&t opic=796&page=2 (the very last post of the thread), although I have to disagree with him on one point, namely the location of Moulinsart.

The question is in two parts: First, please explain why it´s possible that Moulinsart is in Belgium, even if it was a gift from Louis XIV? And secondly (in no direct relation to the post mentioned above), is it possible to deduce the nationality of Francois Haddoque from the premise that he served in the French navy?

Please answer short(ish)ly, some fifty words should be more than enough to answer both of the questions.

Hopefully this is clear enough, I will give some hints if needed.
yamilah
Member
#2 · Posted: 4 Oct 2006 19:02
Part 1.
In 17th century's wars, the territory of the Spanish Netherlands (Belgium to be) was repeatedly nipped at. The French annexed Artois and Cambrai, and Dunkirk was ceded to the English. By the Treaties of Aix-la-Chapelle (1668) and Nijmegen (1678), further territory up to the current Franco-Belgian border was ceded, including most of Walloon Flanders and Hainault, south provinces in which imaginary Moulinsart (Marlinspike Hall) is supposed to be located.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Netherlands
and http://www.aboutbelgium.net/fotos/kaartwallo.jpg

Part 2.
Louis XIV of France employed mercenaries from various origins such as Italian, German, Walloon, Irish, Scots or Swiss, thus Francois de Hadoque might have been one of them.

see http://www.tcd.ie/CISS/mercenaries/index.php
mondrian
Member
#3 · Posted: 9 Oct 2006 11:37
Sorry for the delay, but yamilah gets the point with an exact and excellent answer, congratulations!

For the second question I´d like to add that before the idea of nation state was born, most armies employed mercenaries from all around Europe.

Over to you, Yamilah!
jock123
Moderator
#4 · Posted: 9 Oct 2006 13:17
mondrian
secondly (in no direct relation to the post mentioned above), is it possible to deduce the nationality of Francois Haddoque from the premise that he served in the French navy?
Strictly speaking, is this not a second question? It seems to me that we are setting a precedent here, and a second point might be due as a result.

yamilah
Louis XIV of France employed mercenaries from various origins such as Italian, German, Walloon, Irish, Scots or Swiss, thus Francois de Hadoque might have been one of them.

mondrian
For the second question I´d like to add that before the idea of nation state was born, most armies employed mercenaries from all around Europe.

So then is the answer actually not “no, it isn’t possible to tell”, which doesn’t really constitute a proper quiz-type question, does it?

Could we have a decision, Ed?
edcharlesadams
Trivia Challenge Score Keeper
#5 · Posted: 9 Oct 2006 14:30
Apologies for my lack of moderation on this question so far, I have been away for a little while.

Strictly speaking mondrian's second question is a separate one, but the system we have doesn't seem to give any provision for this. If anyone else had answered it they could have had a point, but that would have given uncertainty as to who set the next question. I think this is a vague road to go down, so please, only one question per round in future. Subsidiary questions or discussions may be made after the correct answer has been given and point(s) awarded.

Please also make your questions as objective as possible, that is, requiring only a definite trivia-style answer based on the material to be found within the Tintin books.

Ed
jock123
Moderator
#6 · Posted: 9 Oct 2006 15:21
Thanks for clearing that up, Ed!
mondrian
Member
#7 · Posted: 18 Oct 2006 21:40
I´m sorry if the question wasn´t objective enough for you. Maybe I shall try to answer few questions above.

edcharlesadams
Please also make your questions as objective as possible, that is, requiring only a definite trivia-style answer based on the material to be found within the Tintin books.

I´m afraid our concepts of good trivia question differ a bit. Recently we´ve seen very interesting questions which require some knowledge of the Beatles (Q69) or meteorology (Q70) and if carefully examined, very few questions in this quiz are answerable only with the Tintin books. In my opinion good trivia question requires broad knowledge, and ability to connect some facts with the knowledge of some other area.

jock123
Strictly speaking, is this not a second question? It seems to me that we are setting a precedent here, and a second point might be due as a result.

Maybe I should read the rules more carefully? Again, I think we are able to find numerous questions which are in two or more parts (Q68, Q61 just to name a few). If this is objectionable, should it be forbidden in the rules?

jock123
So then is the answer actually not “no, it isn’t possible to tell”, which doesn’t really constitute a proper quiz-type question, does it?

Frankly I don´t understand what you´re worried about jock123. I was merely trying to give some extra information, and can´t understand how that would diminish the value of the answer yamilah
gave.


I admit that each time I ask a question (Q6, Q12 & Q67) it seems to cause controversy, so maybe it´s best I withdraw from the quiz completely.
edcharlesadams
Trivia Challenge Score Keeper
#8 · Posted: 19 Oct 2006 00:28
I'm sorry you feel that way mondrian, so let me explain my reasoning a bit.

I´m sorry if the question wasn´t objective enough for you.

What I mean by objective is that a submitted answer can be given simply as 'correct' or 'incorrect' - for example with jock123's Beatles question, Ranko was correct to say The Sheik of Araby and cooldude123 was incorrect to suggest The Grand Old Duke of York. So the matter of awarding a point was very straightforward.

If a question encourages an essay-type response then we could have situations where anyone who submits an answer is worthy of a point because there would be no nominal 'incorrect' answer. Plus the opinion of everyone on the board may differ as to who is most deserving of setting the next question. As it happened, in this case yamilah was the only one to answer, but it does set an uncertain precedent.

In my opinion good trivia question requires broad knowledge, and ability to connect some facts with the knowledge of some other area.

I agree with you; the problem is not with the substance of the question but the mode of the answer. Using jock123's question again as an example, to answer it you would need outside knowledge of the Beatles, but that only enhances the 'trivia' aspect.

I hope that's clear enough, I'll leave to jock to address the points he made.

Ed
jock123
Moderator
#9 · Posted: 19 Oct 2006 13:06
Like Ed I am sorry that you seem upset by the comments, and it was not my intention to do so.

I was only trying to draw a comparison between the sort of questions you refer to, which are two parts about the same subject, and the question(s) you gave here, which appear - to me at least - to be unrelated. That is why I suggested above that perhaps yamilah as due another point, which would be unusual.

As to what the answer should be to the second part, that I stand by: the question is framed as to asking can it be told what nationality Haddoque is, and as yamilah actually demonstrates it can’t - he could be one of the several nationalities yamilah lists, or he could in fact be a soldier (sailor?) of fortune from somewhere else entirely. To my eye that really means it is a question without an answer in a form for a quiz (although it has proved the basis for some interesting thoerizing in previous threads), which really need to have unambiguous, defintive answers.

That’s not to say that the proposition of a question may not throw up other equally correct answers of course, that’s part of the fun. By way of demonstration, had cooldude123 thrown in The Grand Old Duke of York, with a citation saying they recorded it for Radio Patagonia in 1964, that would have been a fine answer to my question, just not one I knew. (I actually now wonder if cooldude was perhaps thinking of Pop Goes the Weasle, which formed the basis of Pop Go the Beatles, the theme to a short lived BBC radio series they did, but apparently it wasn’t The Beatles on the track anyway. But I digress…).

However, that would have been different from someone saying on the nationality front that Haddoque was Italian, then someone else saying he was Wallonian - that’s just not provable. He could be any - or none - of the nationalities listed because it would not be possible to provide a definitive list of nations.

Anyway, please don’t retire from the fray: the very fact that the rules and the like get discussed is the only way that the issues get resolved, and hopefully it improves things for everyone!

This topic is closed.